Impact with Intention

STEPHANIE: Hello and welcome to the purposeful planning podcast. My name is Stephanie Ellis Smith, and I am the CEO of Phila Engaged Giving, and I am also a Co-Dean of Philanthropy with Deborah Goldstein. I am really excited to have Courtney Joyner Gage here with us. She is also a Dean, Dean of Sustainability, one of our newest deanships, and Courtney and I are going to talk about her role and her work in impact investing. Courtney is a Senior Advisor at Align Impact, and we are going to be talking about her work there and how she thinks broadly about sustainability. This podcast is entitled Impact with Intention, a conversation with Courtney Joyner Gage. Courtney, welcome to the podcast. COURTNEY: Thank you, Stephanie. I'm so happy to be here and talk about a subject that's so near and dear to my heart. STEPHANIE: Well, we're really happy to have you here. I want to just start broadly with your story. What is the path that led you to this podcast? Led you to being the Dean of Values-Based Investing at PPI? Give us a little background on who you are. COURTNEY: Sure, so the path that led me to where I am today in my role at Align Impact, as well as my role as the Dean of Value-Based Investing at ppi has really been shaped by a combination of things, I would say, curiosity about the space, some opportunity of doors just kind of happening to open and me walking through them, as well as personal interest. And then also what I've heard from clients, especially those in the rising generation. I'd say it was the combination of those things that led me here. I also want to give a shout out to my mom and my dad. They have always been philanthropic leaders in the Dallas community where I live, and so they really instilled that servant's heart since the very beginning, and as I transitioned into a career in wealth management, I've had the privilege of working with families, foundations and advisors who weren't just asking, “What should I invest in?” But rather, “What kind of impact do I want my capital to have?” And those questions really stuck a chord with me. I became increasingly drawn to the idea that money can be a powerful expression of one's values, legacy and purpose. At the end of the day, all investments have an impact, so why not take an active role in choosing the kind of impact you want to make? That has always been a question that I have asked other advisors and clients and prospects. I think it's a great one, and I am here because I believe that these stories, frameworks and questions are worth sharing, and because I'm still learning every day from the people around me who are watching old paradigms and imagining something more thoughtful, I like to say more human and more lasting and sustainable, since we're here to talk about sustainability. STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely, thank you for that. I wanted to just highlight one thing that you said that I hope that everyone picked up on, and that is all investments have impact. They can be the ones that you would like, or they could be the impacts that you do not care to be having. So thank you for that call out, and just if you could just give us a little peek into how you came to PPI? COURTNEY: Thanks, Stephanie, I came to PPI originally when I was working for a multifamily office in Dallas, And we got connected trying to think who connected us originally, it might have been another Dean, potentially, but I've been coming to the conferences to rendezvous for probably three or four years now, and I've just been so delighted by the community of people there. Everyone is so competent and so engaged and thoughtful and caring and really wants the best for their clients and their fellow partners. It's such a generous community that I have just continued to want to get more and more engaged in the group. STEPHANIE: Great. Well, we're really excited to have you here with us, and especially. Especially as a Dean, but let's kind of move a little bit more into your role at align. And I want to try to get some help from you and having our audience visualize your world, just kind of real talk here, and understanding too that you are not giving us any investment advice on this podcast for someone that's brand new to impact investing. How would you explain it in plain language? COURTNEY: Sure, that's a great question, and I'm a visual learner, so I always like to reference a spectrum of capital as a way to explain value space investing and impact investing. On one end of the spectrum, you have traditional investments focused purely on financial return, and that's probably what most people think of as traditional investing on the other end. And you have philanthropy, which is a space that you and I are very familiar with, where the goal is to generate a positive impact with no expectation of a financial return. So those are kind of the pillars on each end of that spectrum. And I would say that Values-Based Investing sits somewhere in the middle where you're seeking to align capital with the purpose of balancing financial return with meaningful impact, having both of those in mind as a goal. And then within that space, there's such a wide range of approaches depending on your goals. So that could be market rate investments, but there's also catalytic or impact first investing. There's a program related to investing. If you're within the foundation space, there's just a huge variety, even within the impact space, within that spectrum of capital. And then I would also say that wherever you land on that spectrum, you can also have value space investing. This approach can be applied across asset classes, so public equity, six income, private investments and even cash, and then also across impact areas such as climate, healthcare, education, racial equity and more. So really, there's tons of levers to pull even within that spectrum. I do think it's also important to highlight that Values-Based Investing isn't limited to philanthropy. I hear that a lot everyone thinks that it has to be implemented within a philanthropic vehicle. So whether that be a foundation or a donor advice fund, actually can really be implemented across a variety of entities. So whether that be a personal investment account, a trust for a future generation, or also a foundation or donor advice fund, I just hear that a lot, that people assume that it's only relevant to philanthropic entities, but I think it's such a powerful and flexible tool that it can be integrated into any piece of your financial picture. STEPHANIE: That's a great clarification. Thank you for that, because I'm sure we've probably had some audience members who may have had that misconception as well. So, when we were talking a little bit beforehand and prepping for this podcast, you mentioned something that I thought was really interesting. You said that there's like a “bingo board” of issue areas and capital types around impact investing. Can you kind of walk us through a little bit more what that looks like in practice. You kind of touched on it, I think, a little bit in your last comments, but it just sounds really intriguing, and I thought it would be kind of interesting to learn a little bit more what you mean by that. COURTNEY: Absolutely. So here I am again, the visual learner. I always use the bingo board as a visual to help clients and advisors think about a full range. So I know we just talked about a spectrum, but again, think of it as a grid where issue areas, so again, like a climate, education, healthcare, economic mobility, run across the top, and then the types of capital, such as public equity, fixed income, private investments, cash philanthropy, run down the side, and each square on the board represents a way to activate capital for impact in a specific issue area using a particular financial tool. So for example, someone passionate about climate might use grants to a grassroot might make a grant to a grassroots environmental nonprofit, invest in a green bond through their fixed income portfolio, and allocate to a private Clean Energy Fund, all expressing the same core value, but in different ways, using those different levers they have. I think it's a really powerful way to talk about this topic with clients because sometimes it can feel, like the environment, so overwhelming to someone. But if you can break it down and say, “Here's the different ways that you can approach it.” You can even do a bingo board within an area. So even within environment, for example, you can think about conservation. And preventative measures and all different levers within how to impact the environment and think about it in that same way within that one issuer. So there's a lot of ways to look at it, and I always find that it simplifies the complex and makes clients feel like they have a lot of options to tackle a specific area, and really feels like they're shifting the power to their choices. STEPHANIE: And I do like that image of a bingo board. And then the other term that you used, which I think is very helpful, is this idea of levers. Given the issue that a person may want to influence, some lovers may be more advantageous than others at different times. And so this idea of sort of thinking that you have many different levers to pull or buttons to push to sort of activate the type of social impact that you're looking to achieve. I think it is really helpful, and I think that's a great way for folks to think about that. And philanthropy is one of those levers. And philanthropy is not always appropriate or maybe it may always be appropriate, but maybe it not have the highest impact, and that you may get an impact in a different way. COURTNEY: Or it may just not be the only option. I think maybe because it's my background that you have a hammer, every nail looks like something to hit. STEPHANIE: A problem? COURTNEY: Yeah, yes, exactly. STEPHANIE: A problem looks like a nail. COURTNEY: Yes, every problem looks like a nail. And I do feel like philanthropy almost always has a seat at the table when we're thinking about how to solve a problem. I just hope that people don't think of it as the only way to solve the problem. So I think that that's one of our roles as advisors: reframing to help clients think creatively about how to tackle a certain issue, even if it is a local issue or a national issue or international issue. There's lots of levers like you said, or buttons to push. STEPHANIE: And so that may be a misconception that maybe folks think about impact investing. Maybe as it relates to philanthropy, but generally around impact investing that it should only be used in a certain kind of way or for certain sorts of problems. So you've already mentioned a couple of misconceptions about impact investing and whether or not it has a role in and of itself, with or without philanthropy, that it can only be applied within a philanthropic portfolio. What are some other misconceptions you've seen that folks hold about impact investing in general? COURTNEY: So one of the most common misconceptions, in addition to the ones that we've talked about, is sacrificing financial returns. When, in reality, there are lots of options that aim to balance financial returns with meaningful impact. They are not designed to be below market rate. While there are options like we've touched on, a little bit catalytic or impact first, that is a different scenario with different goals. That's just a different approach, but there are plenty of investments that balance those two things. Another misconception is that it has to be all or nothing when we think about approach. So I would say that there's so many ways that someone could dip their toe in or someone could fully commit to Values-Based Investing. I've seen literally every single possible approach when working with clients. So as an example, you may allocate a private sleeve within a personal account, or you could dedicate 100% of just your donor advice fund to values aligned investing, or, I think this is a pretty common approach, is applying a screen to a separately managed account in your public equity holdings, so that you're not the Do-No-Harm approach. So you're screening out things that don't sit well with you, rather than leaning into an impact area. You're just screening out. I would just say that the key is finding the best approach that reflects your goals, your values, and really your comfort level. There's definitely not a one size fits all path, and I think that that is such a fruitful conversation for advisors to be having with clients and families to say, “Okay, if this is important to you, let's think about all the different ways we could get there, whether that be in the next year, the next five years, or next 10 years.” I think that there's so many different ways to approach it. STEPHANIE: Well, it sounds like it just really doesn't have to be all or nothing. It. You can slice or dice this in many different ways. It's a rich area. There's so much information and knowledge out there on everything that you're saying, and I know that you're just giving us the tip of the iceberg. As you've already said, this could be a whole podcast just on misconceptions about impact investing. But what's one piece of advice you might give to someone in the PPI community who wants to explore more about this on their own and they don't know where to start? COURTNEY: A great question. And I would go back to the idea that everyone in PPI is so familiar with: values, legacy, mission, vision. Really stepping back and starting with that when talking to a family and not actually thinking about the how or what it might look like in a portfolio to start. I think everyone can feel really comfortable in starting with those values, anchoring there and partnering with the right advisor or firm to actually think about implementation, but first taking the time to reflect on what matters to the client. I think that's the conversation that a lot of advisors in the PPI community feel really comfortable having, and just letting that guide the exploration with the client family, and also, again, you don't need to overhaul everything at once. I really want to think about intentionality. I think that's something else that's common in the PPI community, is having an intentional plan, an intentional approach. So I think all of us can anchor into that part of the conversation, and then finding the right partner in the PPI community is full of people who can help along that journey. STEPHANIE: I hear you say, “What matters first and foremost is just centering purpose.” And of course, like you said, that fits so neatly into everything that we do here at PPI, regardless of whether we're coming at it from a philanthropic lens, an estate planning lens, financial services lens, that centering around purpose and intentionality is always a good place to start. COURTNEY: Absolutely. STEPHANIE: Let me ask you, too, how can PPI members engage with your work at Align Impact or the broader impact investment community? There are so many different organizations, institutions, and people. Are there any upcoming initiatives or gatherings do you think we should know about? COURTNEY: It's a great question. Align Impact does have its own podcast as well. STEPHANIE: Oh. Great. COURTNEY: So once you listen to this podcast, you can also listen to Alliance podcast. It's called Hopeful Pioneers. It highlights voices and stories from across the impact investing landscape, everything from allocators to investors to just partners in the community. If you're looking for inspiration, I would also say that—like you said, Stephanie—there's so many local and national gallery gatherings that are tailored to different interest areas that I would say that if you're in California and you're interested in the climate, I think that I would just do a quick search, because there's just so many gatherings that I can't even say that there's one that you should exclusively go to, that I would really focus on tailoring it to what you're interested in. And I'm always here to help, and I know that you are too. So if anybody has specific questions, they can also reach out to us. STEPHANIE: Absolutely, absolutely. So your deanship. It's the Dean of Values-Based Investing. Now this is a new position at PPI. I just love to hear from you, Courtney, what excites you most about this role and what are you hoping to be bringing to it as the inaugural Dean? This is going to be your legacy. COURTNEY: Since we've talked so much about legacy, that's the perfect question. I think a lot of things excite me about the role. I'm so happy to see this community leaning into this work. It feels so aligned with all the members and all the clients that we work with, and so I feel like I have the opportunity to elevate conversations around aligning capital with values, especially in a way that feels practical, approachable and personal. I sometimes feel like this topic is a mountain that people feel afraid to cross, and I'm trying to make it seem more like a hill. It is something that is easy to walk over, and it really is. I know I've said this every single time, but in every single answer to your questions, it looks so different for different people. I just think of it like a simple example of sustainability in my own life. And my husband and I bought a historic home in Dallas, and we're renovating it to make it more energy efficient and environmentally sustainable, thinking about how to keep the charm and the character, and thinking about how to make the garden more resilient to the Texas heat and less water intensive and climate adaptive. And in some ways, it feels like that is a mini-way of a values aligned investment, even though it's not in a typical sense, it still is. I joke that, “We're launching this home into the future from 1916 to 2025 and honoring the past while making thoughtful updates and preparing it for future generations.” I know it's small, but it's like a tangible way to talk about sustainability and how it can be really personal and connected. And I think that the more that we can make this topic feel tangible and something that advisors can feel like they can talk about over dinner or lunch or happy hour, and just say, “It can look like all these different things.” And I think the more we can talk about examples, the better. I really want to help the PPI community in bringing more clarity, real world experiences and empathy to help other people explore how investments can reflect purpose and legacy and a lasting impact for families. I think that's really important to all of us. STEPHANIE: That's so great. And I just love the example of your home renovation, because to me, it sounds like, for you, Courtney, that sustainability is a mindset. It's, it's about, it's how you lead your life. And the idea of bringing you said clarity, sort of real world examples and empathy to thinking about your financial investment sounds just very unique to me, and special. And I hope that going forward, it's not going to be so unique, because that sounds like the way exactly we need to be doing this. COURTNEY: And I feel like hearing you reflect that back. Reminds me that, as an advisor, the simplest way to open the door is to ask clients like, “What are you reading about? What sparks joy?” And I guarantee you. I asked someone like that and they'd be like, “I like going to farmers markets, and I love gardening.” It would be very clear to someone without saying, “What do you want to invest in?” I think that even just asking those probing questions about, “How I spend my time and what I read about and what podcasts I listen to?” Usually gives you a pretty good look into what may be a good fit for a client when you're thinking about values based investing and probably philanthropy, too. STEPHANIE: Absolutely, and I have to say, I love the positive framing you put on that, as opposed to the other lead in question, “What's keeping you up at night?” We all have those things, but let's look at those positive things. “How are you spending your days? And what gets you animated?” And this is a perfect lead into my very last question for you, and this is the one that maybe an advisor could also use: what is giving you hope right now? What is giving you hope at this moment, Courtney? COURTNEY: So maybe I am just a forever optimist, but I deeply, deeply feel that the world has more in common and there's more common ground and shared hopes than what divides us. And I think that if we spend more time exploring what drives us, what our goals, our values and dreams are for the world. We often find that we're far more alike than we are different. And I think at that fundamental level, there's a powerful opportunity to continue to build connections and collect a purpose. And I find that when families start to explore this topic, it's kind of like a Venn diagram in the middle keeps getting bigger and bigger, because when you keep drilling down and going further and further, usually there's a lot of similarities. And that's not always the case, but even just the conversation tends to be a positive outcome. Even if the middle of the Venn diagram doesn't keep getting bigger, you're at least having a conversation and opening the doors and having that connectivity through the conversation, and wanting to engage in what other people care about and are interested in. And I just find like these conversations and focusing on the positive, what an opportunity that we have as advisors and as a community in finding hope in our commonality and aiming for connection. STEPHANIE: Courtney, this has been really wonderful. And again, thank you for sharing your optimism and your wisdom and energy with us today. We are so lucky to have you leading this work at PPI. COURTNEY: Thank you so much, Stephanie. I appreciate it.