Episode Transcript
KLEA: Welcome to the purposeful Planning Institute Podcast. My name is Klea Harris, and I am happy to be here with Karen McNeill. I'm an estate planning attorney, a purposeful estate planning attorney, inspired by the work of of the Purposeful Planning Institute colleagues, and so grateful to learn from Karen as the Dean of Family, Stories, History, and Culture, and this is going to be just a fantastic conversation that we get to share with you. Karen, tell us about your Purposeful Odyssey, as Johnny likes to invite our guests. Tell us how you came to binding Purposeful Planning Institute, how you became so interested in this subject to make it your life's work.
KAREN: Hi, Klea. Thank you. It's lovely to be here today. Yeah. So I trained in History. I have a PhD in History, and always imagined myself to be a professor, to do the academic thing, and for a variety of reasons, that did not turn out to be my path, which the great recession was played a big, big part in that one. But it turned out I was really fortunate to be able to pivot into historic preservation. I was writing the histories of buildings and properties, and getting properties on the National Register and things like that. And what I loved about that work was the application of history to real world situations. So getting it out of the really long detailed monograph, getting it out of the classroom and into the real world, and I have found a real passion for that throughout the rest of my career. So after Yeah, and after several years, I like historic preservation, it wasn't like the lifelong career for me. So I was looking around, and I saw this job posting for Director of Family History for the ultra high net worth division of a major US Bank. And I thought, “Huh, I haven't heard of that before.” And I checked it out, and it was just it. I was the needle in the haystack that fit all of the experience and education and all of that stuff. And it was this lump of clay. It was amazing. It was actually a brand new service line that was a lump of clay that I got to develop, and that I got to mold myself. And from the outset, I knew, kind of started out doing books, because that's the way that people understand history most easily. But it was never actually where I wanted to focus my energies. I wanted to chunk it down and create ways to integrate this into the world of families. These multi-generational families in a variety of ways. So from the outset, there are a few really important things. One is that I was always working with an interdisciplinary group of estate planning attorneys, financial advisors, bankers, investors and coaches, people with backgrounds in psychology, usually. That was amazing. Always love that these roles.
KLEA: Are they all part of the team?
KAREN: Yeah, they were all part of my team. Absolutely, they're always all part of my team.
KLEA: A dream team, huh?
KAREN: Absolutely. And from day one, I was a member of the Purposeful Planning Institute. And my colleagues, I started full time on like, June 1, and they threw me into my first rendezvous at the end of July that year, doing a breakout session. And so I have been involved with ppi ever since it is one of the most generous professional communities I have ever known in my entire life. And I was just thrilled to be named the the Dean of Family, Stories, History and Culture, so that I can help bring this vision of accessible history and a deep impact to my colleagues and the families we all work with.
KLEA: Well, it's really a practical kind of history. It's not just conceptual. It's not just facts and figures. It's an intimate history. And you—we had talked beforehand—just about how intimate that can get, and how uncomfortable it can become with the proverbial skeletons in the closet. Like those issues, those things from our family dynamics or paths that maybe previous generations haven’t been too willing to discuss, but that are still reverberating in subsequent generations today. So tell me about your work with that, your thoughts about how to handle those things when they come up in an engagement with clients. What advice do you have for us? And how can we turn that difficulty—or that skeleton—maybe into a rose? Something that really becomes a gift to us.
KAREN: Honestly, I think you said it right there—skeletons are so important to uncover. I think—I think the title of a piece I wrote was Skeletons in the Closet: Let Them Out and Watch Them Dance—that we shouldn't be afraid of them, because if the conversations go well, it really can be a pathway to forgiveness and healing that opens up the family culture to functioning well together and thriving. So, a couple of things to say about skeletons from the beginning. One is that they are the stories that have been buried—intentionally or unintentionally—and possibly forgotten, especially over a few generations. They may have been forgotten, but that doesn't mean—like you said—they're not reverberating within the family culture today. Sometimes they’re obvious. When we say "skeletons," we know that means scandals, murders, other crimes, and the fallacious extramarital affairs. Slavery is also a common one in the American story. So those are kind of the obvious ones, and they do come up. They do come up in lots and lots of families. And then there are the ones that were skeletons at the time—they were embarrassing or scandalous, especially in the 19th century or before World War II, or maybe before the past 50 years. But the stigma is much less now. This would include things like divorce or children born out of wedlock. But because they happened in the times that they did, that fostered a particular set of behaviors and communication patterns and responses that, again, reverberate down to today. But then so often, the skeletons—they’re not scandals, they’re not shameful. They’re the challenges of everyday life.
KLEA: Yeah, the microaggressions, right?
KAREN: Yeah. They’re the challenges of everyday life that left little room or time to work through emotionally. Or, you know, they were overwhelmingly emotional, and the culture—family or the larger societal culture—just didn’t allow for that kind of processing. And here, the immigration journey, that could be a tough one. Or the poverty years, a lot of immigrant families, a hundred years ago or earlier, faced really challenging times at first. Who was going to be talking about how it felt at the time to try to find the bread? And then there’s mortality. Especially for mothers, infants, and children—death during childbirth was so common. Or disease, right? I can’t tell you how many people died of tuberculosis a little over a century ago. So again, there just wasn’t the time or space to process any of that. But when we uncover those stories, and we understand the context of what was happening at the time, and we explore how that might be reverberating today, then the people in the room can look at each other and understand, like some of your quirks. They’re not about you, or grandma, or anybody. This is inherited culture.
KLEA: It kind of reminds me of the Bowen system for family theory. They encourage diagramming the family to help—at least creating a platform to ask these questions that you're asking, like: What would life have been like during this time period? Look at the death dates. My husband has two grandparents who passed away within a week of each other from the Spanish flu—we figured that out by looking at the dates. Just being really purposeful can help highlight those things in the lives of your clients. And it also really feeds into the narrative that we talk about in PPI with shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves. I know we’re trying to get away from that language, but we want our kids to learn from the experiences and the hardships—and maybe the skeletons—that we’ve experienced, or that our parents or grandparents have experienced, so we can stand on their shoulders, not repeat their mistakes.
KAREN: You reminded me of something else, too. A few things. One is that balance between the facts and the stories—because stories aren't actually dependent on facts, right? And facts are really dry and not that interesting without storytelling. But when you put the two together, you have something much more powerful. Another thing that’s related: sometimes the stories that families are operating by—whether negative or positive—might be myths. They might not be helping. Yeah, they might not be serving the family well. So going back in and finding that balance again—between the story and what the evidence shows—might reveal something very different. It could be a much, much better story. Or it could be really difficult. But again, it's worth having that balance—understanding the stories, and balancing them with the research. You also asked about approaching this with families. For the most part, it's been fascinating. If the characters in the story—the ancestors—have all passed away, and especially if no one in the room knew those people, then rarely has it been difficult to dig into those stories from the past. Because the emotional resonance of stories lasts for about 80 to 100 years, and then as they drop out of daily life and daily awareness, you become more objective. And as you know, we may be exploring those stories because of the existing elephant in the room, to bring in another metaphor. But we gain practice talking about the difficult subjects by using these stories from the past. Somehow, they have this emotional resonance for us, and yet at the same time, it’s not this overwhelming personal thing where I have to be defensive, or things like that.
KLEA: So we don’t feel ownership over the outcome. I like this idea—we’re more, I hate to say “victims,” but we’re more experiencing the consequences of it, rather than being the ones who perpetuated the problem. So it gives them practice—practice in being able to talk about hard things with perspective—with the hope that we can talk about hard things that might be happening now, but from the perspective of someone 80 to 100 years in our lifetime, maybe.
KAREN: When I talk about estate planning, I tell people that what I do is not therapy—but it is therapeutic.
KLEA: Absolutely, absolutely, you're not a therapist and I'm not a therapist. We know a lot more than the typical I mean, I'm me. I know a lot more than a typical estate planning journey about my clients families, and we get into a lot of mud.
KAREN: I always know more than anybody else about these families.
KLEA: Yeah, I do—exactly. But then, when you can turn it into a therapeutic process—even though it’s not therapy. Honestly, it’s easier for a lot of these ultra-high-net-worth families to work with someone who’s not a licensed therapist. They would probably rather talk about these things the way you are. So tell me about that.
KAREN: That’s absolutely true. From my experience—it’s not always the case—but so often, you know, I’ve had families where my colleagues came in and said they just couldn’t crack the nut, couldn’t get a good conversation going with a particular client. And I’ll happen to have an oral history interview lined up with that person, and I’ll get on like a house on fire with them—I’ll draw them out, draw out all the stories. And it’s not exactly clear where that comes from. But I think the person knows I’m not coming from a place where I need to know your emotional being. I’m not starting from a place of emotions. I’m starting from the fact that I’ve done some research I can bring to the table. I have a historical imagination—I can imagine the life, the time and place where you grew up. I can help you link dots outside of yourself. And I know I’m not really equipped to take you down a deep, deep emotional rabbit hole, and so we’re not going to go there. But we will have these stories. And you and I both know plenty of people in our industry who do have the training to tap into the emotional part of it.
KLEA: Yeah, I love what you said: historical imagination. I think that’s something that, with your PhD in History, you’re maybe more equipped to do, but I really like My Short History of Podcasts by the Noiser Network. I have to say, my historical imagination has gotten a lot sharper since I started watching or listening to that but I see so many parallels. There’s so much we can do and know, just like in all of our areas of expertise. If something steps outside of my wheelhouse with estate planning, I have people I co-counsel with, and I know how to make those introductions. That’s how I’m brought into those relationships. So it sounds like there’s still a lot we can do. So what are some things you advise? If you were working within a family, how do you communicate the value? Where would you recommend a family begin in its investment in their history? What would be a good place to start—something we could all incorporate into our various roles, whether you're a financial advisor, an estate planning attorney, you work for a big bank, or you're ultra-high-net-worth or just regular? What would you recommend if you could have everyone in PPI—if they really wanted to follow the Dean of Family Stories, History, and Culture—what best practices would you have us follow? What would you recommend we do as part of our intake, or as part of our process?
KAREN: Yeah, so I'll give you a couple of answers or a few. If you're working directly with me or someone like me, then I’ll probably start with the genealogy. Let’s find out what’s out there. Let’s see what history is available. Then we analyze it for what might be the tripwires in the family, whether they’re aware of them or not, and where there might be opportunities to explore interesting people. This can later be incorporated into education, like personalized financial education, or used to create emotional buy-in for governance, or all sorts of things like that. It can also help advisors come up with the best gifts for their clients, because they come from a unique source. And if you know me, you know I don’t use the word "unique" lightly. I don’t just bandy that word about. A family’s history is unique to them. So that’s certainly where I start. But what I really, truly recommend is that a family focus on three things. If they only do three things, they should do oral histories of the elders, and I’ll get to why in a second. They should be intentional about creating a culture of storytelling. And they should curate a family archive, preferably with an engaging digital portal. There are many reasons to do these things. For example, many people have told me how cathartic sharing their life story is. They thought they didn’t have anything to say, or that people didn’t care, but really, they just hadn’t been asked the questions. And they had tons to say. As they articulate their stories, they can gain clarity around the values that have motivated them, which might serve as guideposts for future generations. They might even feel more prepared to let go of control, which is an important thing in succession. And they may figure out what they want to do next. A culture of storytelling, for instance through family meetings, is an easy and usually fun way to include many generations, including those who’ve married in. It gives everyone a voice in the room and helps them feel seen. It encourages accepting difference without judgment and helps build empathy. And ideally, someone will be recording those stories.
KLEA: Whether on paper or video. It doesn’t have to be a camera, right?
KAREN: Right. Yeah. They can be bullet points to somebody. It can be low-tech, high-tech, whatever—but record them, because that’ll come back to the last point. The archive can serve very practical purposes, like documenting the things a family owns for estate planning, tax purposes, and things like that. That’s the practical side of it. A more sentimental and emotionally important purpose could be—heaven forbid—the next tornado or hurricane or fire destroys the family home. A record of the things and hopefully the stories behind them might help mitigate the pain of losing them. But the thing that ties all of these activities together is that they leave a complex record for future generations to explore, understand, and incorporate into their sense of identity and purpose, both individually and as part of the family. Because if you only have the genealogical record, because just what’s out there publicly for future generations, then they’re going to miss out on so much. The personalities, the joys, the rituals, the nuance, and the complexity. They’ll have to fill that in with imagination and context, which may or may not serve them well. But if they have more than just the book, more than the film, if they have all of the raw materials to explore for themselves, you can imagine the cousin generation, a few generations from now. The wealth creator might not resonate as much, because that was 80 or 100 years ago. But they’ll still feel connected to this family. They’ll be able to go in and find new sources of inspiration. A lot of the story will remain the same. It will stay steady but every generation will be able to define it for themselves, which makes it more powerful as they shape it into their own identity and their shared decision-making.
KLEA: So this really reminds me of the presidential papers, how each President has their own presidential library. And I know that’s one of the hardest things with some of my clients: helping them understand that they are important enough to save all of their journals. Please don’t burn them. Or even honestly, you hear about people saving their grocery lists. I know people who collect grocery lists that others leave behind at the store. Because it says something about that moment in someone’s life. I think it’s interesting that we don’t know what future generations are going to need to learn from us. And if we do our own self-editing, “This is the story that matters, so I’m going to tell this one and throw everything else away.” That’s what I find so interesting about what you’re saying: this idea of having a library of resources that future generations can draw from. They can be guided toward what speaks to them, what matters to them, in that particular time and space in their lives. Do you have any great statistics or anything? Like, what could I say in one line? What’s my elevator pitch? I have 25 seconds to convince a client to do these three things. What would you have me say? What are the benefits you’d want me to say?
KAREN: Now we’re going to have to pause—because I need to come up with a good answer for that one.
KLEA: Sorry, I sprung that one on too much.
KAREN: Just a little bit. A little bit of that does come in—between. It’s just that it can be difficult, because automatically, I don’t see limits. I see so much potential in history. It’s my passion. I see so much flexibility in it.
KLEA: Yeah. So when people don’t see that, they don’t see the value right away—I sometimes hear people, “Nobody cares. They don’t care now, so why would they care in the future?”
KAREN: What you just said is very interesting. So many people go into these family situations thinking no one cares or that no one is interested—but so often, I’ve found that the children and grandchildren really want to know. So I guess, to answer your question at least in part: have you actually asked? Are you sure the people in your family don’t want to know? Because I bet, if you combined storytelling with history that includes the facts, the documentary evidence and shared that at a family meeting, you’d be amazed at how much conversation that generates. How much goodwill it creates. How much curiosity it sparks. And how much the younger people in the family—whether they’re in their 60s or 50s, or even in their 20s—genuinely care. Because everybody wants to have a strong sense of identity. Everyone wants to be proud of the family they come from. This stuff really does matter. That’s one big element of it. Another thing is that every family I work with, ultimately, cares about the family the most. Their vision for the future is usually siblings and cousins still getting along, still going on vacations together, still engaged in some shared philanthropy or family activity. It’s not that they want to do everything together—but they do want to stay connected. The challenge is, they don’t always know how to hold the family together well. And that’s where family history comes in. It’s the well from which everyone springs—and always will. But if you don’t make a concerted effort to record some of the fabulous stories of today, and to pull this material together, then future generations will be left with a pretty dry record that won’t be very engaging. So do it. Hopefully, that can be the motivation you need to write down your story. You might not think it’s interesting, but you have no idea what people in the future will think. And work with someone from outside the family, someone who is naturally curious.
KLEA: I love that. And I think it’s interesting, you mentioned shared philanthropy. When that philanthropy is rooted in the family story, it becomes even more powerful. If there’s a family history tied to a certain region of the United States, or to a specific type of hardship—a “skeleton” they’ve overcome—then why not use that experience to help heal the world? There’s nothing more beautiful than taking those skeletons and helping them learn to dance. And not just for the family—but to help others dance as well, using the wisdom the family has accumulated. Well, fantastic. It’s been so great to visit with you today, Karen. There’s so much more we could talk about. I’m sure you have many opportunities to share these stories, and honestly, you deserve to have your own podcast with your consulting business, Verdandi & Associates. I’m sure this is a message that will resonate, not just with people in the future, but with those listening right now. What’s really interesting, when my clients have done oral histories because I use a platform they can access. I’ve seen the impact it has when they pass away, so I ask them six questions. And when the history played at their memorials, their kids are not on their cell phones. And the ones that don’t do it, same kids are sitting in the corner, totally spaced out, playing Clash of Clans or Candy Crush during their grandparents’ funeral. And it drives me nuts when Grandma and Grandpa are up on the screen, during the viewing, sharing their vision, their values, their legacy, their stories, the kids are riveted. The whole room is full of joy. It’s a completely different feeling. Because Grandma and Grandpa are there. Their voice is there. It’s been captured. So when you talk about the importance of oral history—that’s the story I tell my clients. Please, please don’t make me come to your funeral and see your kids on their cell phones. You deserve better than that.”
KAREN: I love that. I love that. And I’ll leave you with one other parting thought. I often say that family history is a lot like exercise. You have to figure out how to get it done. You might kind of dread it, maybe after a little bit of pain—you never regret it. You might not love it, but you never regret it. What you do regret is not recording the oral history, not pulling some of this stuff together.
KLEA: All you’re left with is an old phone message that you have to replay over and over again—and that’s been the situation for some families too. Well, Karen, this has been so wonderful. Such a delight to spend this last half hour with you. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to record this for posterity. And your own posterity will be able to know just how passionate you are about the work you do, and the service you’ve given to the community and to our colleagues here at PPI. Thank you again, and we hope to have you on again sometime soon.
